http://imagej.273.s1.nabble.com/ImageJ-Plugins-shop-tp5018455p5018503.html
software for business. If the Author has not licensed it, then it is
The ImageJ-1 core is in the public domain, i.e. without license, except
> Hi Curtis
>
> Thanks for the mention. For those who don't know me, I do freelance work,
> programming image processing plugins. ImageJ is by far my preferred tool,
> though I still end up doing a lot of matlab. A lot of the work I've been
> paid for has ended up being proprietary. However I've taken several steps
> to try and contribute to the opensource community, like contributing to the
> imagej-ops and imagej-scripting projects, and answering listserv questions.
>
> In terms of building a business around ImageJ/Fiji, I would advise making
> connections with the community. If you enjoy small projects and like
> coding yourself, you can find opportunities on the message group(s) and
> through word of mouth.
>
> If you want to start a larger multi-person company I think you could target
> people/institutions/companies who are currently paying large sums of money
> for commercial image processing software, and figure out if there is a way
> to get them to switch to open source, while earning money off of
> support/improvements/customization/etc.
>
> Herbie - My understanding is that one should only use "licensed" software
> for business. If the Author has not licensed it, then it is uncertain
> what their wishes are.
>
> Most open source software has a license, most licenses allow
> re-distribution of source, some licenses allow redistribution of compiled
> code without source.
>
> FIJI itself, and many of the FIJI plugins are GPL. One can use them for
> business purposes, one can post FIJI and plugins on their own website (I
> believe), but they have to redistribute the source code, and also
> distribute the source code of any derivative work.
>
> Much of the ImageJ core frame work is BSD, which means one can use it in
> proprietary projects, without distributing the source.
>
> Brian
>
> On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 2:11 AM, Herbie <
[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Dear list,
>>
>> I very much should like to revive the discussion concerning the topic,
>> especially after Curtis' extensive comments that are as lucid as the
>> arguments of the initial poster.
>>
>> My impression is that many of the remaining contributions are more to the
>> point and I don't see any reason to urge for a "respectful tone" and if so,
>> in a more specific way.
>>
>> My opinion is that everybody should be free to pursue a fair and legal
>> business model.
>>
>> A problem occurs however, if existing work of others, even if it is
>> freeware, is presented on a _commercial_ site without explicit permission
>> of the authors:
>> Authors must be free to decide on which sites their work is presented.
>>
>> I very much should like to see further comments.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Herbie
>>
>> :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
>> Am 10.04.17 um 19:30 schrieb Curtis Rueden:
>>
>> Hi everyone,
>>>
>>> There are many different schools of thought on software development and
>>> deployment, even within open-source software. It is important to keep an
>>> open mind to other perspectives, and assume best intentions. So first and
>>> foremost, I implore everyone to maintain a respectful tone in ImageJ
>>> community discussions.
>>>
>>> === Reusable tools are something to strive for ===
>>>
>>> When we develop software tools for ourselves - these tools start out
>>>> in a form that is useable mostly by yourself. It is usually when we
>>>> are developing it for our friend/colleague that we care for
>>>> re-useability. But once we do develop for someone else - the tool
>>>> quality improves, documentation gets added, the tool gets feature
>>>> updates and bug-fixes, etc.
>>>>
>>>
>>> This narrative certainly rings true in my experience. The fact of the
>>> matter is that developing a reusable tool of broad scope is substantially
>>> (sometimes vastly) more work than developing a one-off tool of limited
>>> scope. How to fund/accomplish that extra work is often a thorny problem. I
>>> applaud efforts to do so, because the alternative—a lack of reusable
>>> tools—is not a good situation.
>>>
>>> We want to build a web-based community of developers and users that
>>>> benefits from such exchanges.
>>>>
>>>
>>> 100% agreed. That is why we have ImageJ update sites. It is a big reason
>>> for the existence of ImageJ2. It is why we have the ImageJ wiki (
>>>
https://imagej.net/), and why I wrote the page
https://imagej.net/>>> Distribution.
>>>
>>> === ImageJ is permissively licensed ===
>>>
>>> We want to enable tools to be - discoverable, re-useable and supported
>>>> by the author, for a price. Existing media (methods section of a
>>>> paper, supplementary pages, and methods journals) are unsuitable for
>>>> this purpose.
>>>>
>>>
>>> ImageJ is funded by taxpayer money, and permissively licensed (
>>>
https://imagej.net/Licensing). It is available to the community for any
>>> and
>>> all purposes, including commercial ones. From a general,
>>> non-science-specific perspective, an "app store" for ImageJ extensions
>>> could be extremely convenient, and could expand the ImageJ community.
>>>
>>> === The problem with non-free extensions ===
>>>
>>> That said, ImageJ's primary use case is scientific image analysis, and it
>>> is vital that such analyses be 100% reproducible. Non-free extensions are
>>> a
>>> barrier to that reproducibility. For a detailed rationale, see
>>>
http://imagej.net/Open_Source and
http://imagej.net/Reproducibility.
>>>
>>> === Objections ===
>>>
>>> I have two primary objections to imagejplugins.com as presented:
>>>
>>> 1) In practice, it would encourage non-free plugins intended for
>>> scientific
>>> analysis, resulting in less reproducible science in our community. Even
>>> with fully reproducible FOSS, science is still difficult to do well (
>>>
http://imagej.github.io/presentations/2017-02-16-imagej2-neubias/#/18/2).
>>>
>>> 2) One of the primary goals of ImageJ2 is to unify online resources. We
>>> still need to integrate several major resources onto the primary ImageJ
>>> site (
https://imagej.net/), including the ImageJ user guide (
>>>
https://imagej.net/docs/guide/), ImageJ 1.x plugin documentation (
>>>
https://imagej.net/index.html), and ImageJDocu Wiki (
>>>
http://imagejdocu.tudor.lu/). A new site imagejplugins.com would be a
>>> step
>>> backward from that. If you want to move forward with an "app store" for
>>> ImageJ extensions in this vein, I strongly encourage you to gather
>>> requirements publicly from the community, and work toward some kind of
>>> central community standard—i.e., something official, supported by the core
>>> tooling of ImageJ. Yes, it is more work, but it is better for the same
>>> reasons developing reusable plugins is better.
>>>
>>> I also have a third pragmatic objection: implementing the security
>>> elements
>>> necessary to support a payment infrastructure is a lot of effort. The core
>>> ImageJ or Fiji development teams have neither time nor energy to
>>> facilitate
>>> making it possible, for reasons stated above.
>>>
>>> === Ways to fund development of ImageJ extensions ===
>>>
>>> Circling back to the broader question: how do we fund development and
>>> maintenance of reusable ImageJ extensions? There are many possibilities,
>>> such as:
>>>
>>> 1) Consulting—pay for the development, not the code. Several commercial
>>> entities (companies, consultants, freelancers, etc.) make a living coding
>>> solutions for clients, including ImageJ extensions [1]. In the typical
>>> case, the client pays for consulting and/or code development services, and
>>> the results are then released as open source whenever possible. In my
>>> view,
>>> this is a nice crossroads of commercial and OSS development.
>>>
>>> 2) Public funds, such as scientific grants. This is how much of core
>>> ImageJ
>>> and many Fiji plugins are funded. See
http://imagej.net/Funding. I think
>>> public agencies are (in general) becoming more aware that reusability,
>>> including continued maintenance, is a necessary piece of the puzzle.
>>>
>>> 3) Training courses with registration fees.
>>>
>>> 4) Patreon (
https://www.patreon.com/) and similar donation mechanisms.
>>>
>>> The main thing to keep in mind is: how to fund the effort, while keeping
>>> the science reproducible?
>>>
>>> In the vein of "pay for the development, not the code," one idea I have
>>> discussed with other developers is a web-based bounty system for issues.
>>> Users may pledge money towards issues (i.e. bugs and feature requests)
>>> they
>>> want to see solved. Developers may work on these issues. When work is
>>> complete, the users confirm that their requirements are met, and the
>>> payment happens. Of course, there are many nuances, edge cases and
>>> pitfalls
>>> which must be carefully considered for such a scheme to work in practice.
>>> But these are the sorts of places where there is room for ethical
>>> innovation that keeps the science open while creating new revenue streams.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Curtis
>>>
>>> [1] E.g.: True North Intelligent Algorithms (
http://truenorth-ia.com/)
>>> and
>>> OptiNav (
https://www.optinav.com/imagej-plugins).
>>>
>>> --
>>> Curtis Rueden
>>> LOCI software architect -
https://loci.wisc.edu/software>>> ImageJ2 lead, Fiji maintainer -
https://imagej.net/User:Rueden>>> Did you know ImageJ has a forum?
http://forum.imagej.net/>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 3:33 AM, Thomas Boudier <
>>>
[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear Pushkar,
>>>>
>>>> I think there is a big misunderstanding on what you want to do. I f you
>>>> want to set up a repository of existing plugins, ok, why not, but what
>>>> for
>>>> ?. There are aleady many official repositories for plugins, I do not
>>>> think
>>>> we need one more. And if you want to create a repository, please ask the
>>>> plugins developers if they want their plugins to be hosted on your
>>>> repository.
>>>>
>>>> If you want to have commercial activity with ImageJ/Fiji, there is space
>>>> for this, and the best (and only ?) way to do is to set-up a company and
>>>> provide programming service to develop custom-made plugins to
>>>> third-parties.
>>>>
>>>> I think the idea of a shop mixing free (and open-source) plugins with
>>>> paid
>>>> ones is not a good idea as it is not the ImageJ/Fiji philosophy, so
>>>> please
>>>> clarify your intentions.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>>
>>>> Thomas
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 10/04/2017 15:33, pushkarparanjpe wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Thank you for pointing this out.
>>>>>
>>>>> Andrei Stefan wrote
>>>>>
>>>>> First, I am a bit confused about who "we" is in Pushkar's emails.
>>>>>> On Pushkar's web site the google maps location of the "business" is
>>>>>> located close to the Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco, in a
>>>>>> residential
>>>>>> area.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Currently, I am operating out of Liverpool, UK. I have updated the
>>>>> default
>>>>> map location of the website template just now.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Andrei Stefan wrote
>>>>>
>>>>> Pushkar, even though your emails seem very well phrased (business
>>>>>> language)
>>>>>> in terms of your intentions with this ImageJ plugin "shop", personally
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> am
>>>>>> not convinced that you shared the true story behind your intentions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would love to get on a call with you and talk about the motivations
>>>>> for
>>>>> starting this website. I am writing to you separately to share my mobile
>>>>> phone number.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers!
>>>>> Pushkar
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> View this message in context:
http://imagej.1557.x6.nabble.c>>>>> om/ImageJ-Plugins-shop-tp5018455p5018485.html
>>>>> Sent from the ImageJ mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> ImageJ mailing list:
http://imagej.nih.gov/ij/list.html>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>> /***************************************************************/
>>>> Thomas Boudier, Associate Professor, UPMC,
>>>> Université Pierre et Marie Curie, Paris, France.
>>>> BioInformatics Institute (BII)/IPAL, Singapore.
>>>> /**************************************************************/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> ImageJ mailing list:
http://imagej.nih.gov/ij/list.html>>>>
>>>>
>>> --
>>> ImageJ mailing list:
http://imagej.nih.gov/ij/list.html>>>
>>>
>> --
>> ImageJ mailing list:
http://imagej.nih.gov/ij/list.html>>
>
> --
> ImageJ mailing list:
http://imagej.nih.gov/ij/list.html>