higher bit-depth LUT?

[Yew wai Liew]

Dear all,

I'm new to ImageJ, so I wonder if any of you can help me with a problem. I'm
a masters student currently doing my dissertation on the effect of bit-depth
on image quality.

I'm working on a couple of primary-grade monochrome Barco medical displays
which have 10-bit grayscale resolution capabilities. Right now I've imported
16-bit unsigned images into ImageJ but if I'm not mistaken, ImageJ works on
an 8-bit LUT. Is there any way I can edit the LUT or has anyone written a
plugin for a higher bit-depth LUT? Specifically, I need a 10-bit grayscale
LUT. Thanks in advance. I would appreciate any kind of input.

P.s. If this email is in any way unwelcome or if you find it annoying, feel
free to ignore it ;p



--
Liew Yew Wai

[Yew wai Liew]

Thanks for the confirmation, Wayne. Has anyone written a 10-bit LUT for
ImageJ? If not, can someone point me in the right direction on how I should
proceed? I'm not familiar with java.

Thanks.


On 10/16/06, Rasband Wayne <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> > I'm new to ImageJ, so I wonder if any of you can help me with a
> > problem. I'm
> > a masters student currently doing my dissertation on the effect of
> > bit-depth
> > on image quality.
> >
> > I'm working on a couple of primary-grade monochrome Barco medical
> > displays
> > which have 10-bit grayscale resolution capabilities. Right now I've
> > imported
> > 16-bit unsigned images into ImageJ but if I'm not mistaken, ImageJ
> > works on
> > an 8-bit LUT. Is there any way I can edit the LUT or has anyone
> > written a
> > plugin for a higher bit-depth LUT? Specifically, I need a 10-bit
> > grayscale
> > LUT. Thanks in advance. I would appreciate any kind of input.
>
> ImageJ does work with 8-bit LUTs. It also display images using 8-bits
> per channel. You will need to write a plugin that works with 10-bit
> LUTs and outputs to the Barco display using 12-bits.
>
> -wayne
>

--
Liew Yew Wai

[ctrueden]

Hi,

You mentioned needing a "grayscale LUT." If all you need is grayscale,
ImageJ already supports 16-bit unsigned image data (which could
contain 10-bit data), which displays as grayscale. You would only need
a LUT if you need to alter the color table values corresponding to
particular color indices.

-Curtis

On 10/16/06, Yew wai Liew <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Thanks for the confirmation, Wayne. Has anyone written a 10-bit LUT for
> ImageJ? If not, can someone point me in the right direction on how I should
> proceed? I'm not familiar with java.
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> On 10/16/06, Rasband Wayne <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > I'm new to ImageJ, so I wonder if any of you can help me with a
> > > problem. I'm
> > > a masters student currently doing my dissertation on the effect of
> > > bit-depth
> > > on image quality.
> > >
> > > I'm working on a couple of primary-grade monochrome Barco medical
> > > displays
> > > which have 10-bit grayscale resolution capabilities. Right now I've
> > > imported
> > > 16-bit unsigned images into ImageJ but if I'm not mistaken, ImageJ
> > > works on
> > > an 8-bit LUT. Is there any way I can edit the LUT or has anyone
> > > written a
> > > plugin for a higher bit-depth LUT? Specifically, I need a 10-bit
> > > grayscale
> > > LUT. Thanks in advance. I would appreciate any kind of input.
> >
> > ImageJ does work with 8-bit LUTs. It also display images using 8-bits
> > per channel. You will need to write a plugin that works with 10-bit
> > LUTs and outputs to the Barco display using 12-bits.
> >
> > -wayne
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Liew Yew Wai
>

[Yew wai Liew]

hi Curtis,

Thanks for the input...I think maybe I should be clearer on what my litlle
problem is. I know that ImageJ supports grayscale and unsigned 16-bit
images. But since ImageJ's built-in LUT is that of an 8-bit what it does is
that to display those images, it takes all 16-bit and 32-bit grayscale
images and linearly rescales it to the 8-bit LUT so that a pixel value of 0
is black and 255 is white.

I'm doing a comparison on image quality between 8 and 10-bit grayscale
images, by measuring the luminance which corresponds to a paticular pixel
value. Say I generate square boxes of uniform pixel value of 32768,32834 and
32900. These images will be 16-bit unsigned. Now on a true 10-bit display I
will be able to measure a difference in the luminance for these boxes. But
when I view them using ImageJ, the pixel values get rescaled to 128,128 and
128. An 8-bit depth will not be able to handle the subtle differences in
pixel values.

Therefore, my question is this..has anyone written a plugin for a 10-bit
LUT? Which would have values of 0 for black and 1023 for white? I am
unfamiliar with Java, can someone show me how I can write the plugin myself?


On 10/16/06, Curtis Rueden <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Hi,
>
> You mentioned needing a "grayscale LUT." If all you need is grayscale,
> ImageJ already supports 16-bit unsigned image data (which could
> contain 10-bit data), which displays as grayscale. You would only need
> a LUT if you need to alter the color table values corresponding to
> particular color indices.
>
> -Curtis
>
> On 10/16/06, Yew wai Liew <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Thanks for the confirmation, Wayne. Has anyone written a 10-bit LUT for
> > ImageJ? If not, can someone point me in the right direction on how I
> should
> > proceed? I'm not familiar with java.
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> >
> > On 10/16/06, Rasband Wayne <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > I'm new to ImageJ, so I wonder if any of you can help me with a
> > > > problem. I'm
> > > > a masters student currently doing my dissertation on the effect of
> > > > bit-depth
> > > > on image quality.
> > > >
> > > > I'm working on a couple of primary-grade monochrome Barco medical
> > > > displays
> > > > which have 10-bit grayscale resolution capabilities. Right now I've
> > > > imported
> > > > 16-bit unsigned images into ImageJ but if I'm not mistaken, ImageJ
> > > > works on
> > > > an 8-bit LUT. Is there any way I can edit the LUT or has anyone
> > > > written a
> > > > plugin for a higher bit-depth LUT? Specifically, I need a 10-bit
> > > > grayscale
> > > > LUT. Thanks in advance. I would appreciate any kind of input.
> > >
> > > ImageJ does work with 8-bit LUTs. It also display images using 8-bits
> > > per channel. You will need to write a plugin that works with 10-bit
> > > LUTs and outputs to the Barco display using 12-bits.
> > >
> > > -wayne
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Liew Yew Wai
> >
>

--
Thanks,

YW Liew

[Yew wai Liew]

hi Curtis,

Thanks for the input...I think maybe I should be clearer on what my litlle
problem is. I know that ImageJ supports grayscale and unsigned 16-bit
images. But since ImageJ's built-in LUT is that of an 8-bit what it does is
that to display those images, it takes all 16-bit and 32-bit grayscale
images and linearly rescales it to the 8-bit LUT so that a pixel value of 0
is black and 255 is white.

I'm doing a comparison on image quality between 8 and 10-bit grayscale
images, by measuring the luminance which corresponds to a paticular pixel
value. Say I generate square boxes of uniform pixel value of 32768,32834 and
32900. These images will be 16-bit unsigned. Now on a true 10-bit display I
will be able to measure a difference in the luminance for these boxes. But
when I view them using ImageJ, the pixel values get rescaled to 128,128 and
128. An 8-bit depth will not be able to handle the subtle differences in
pixel values.

Therefore, my question is this..has anyone written a plugin for a 10-bit
LUT? Which would have values of 0 for black and 1023 for white? I am
unfamiliar with Java, can someone show me how I can write the plugin myself?


On 10/16/06, Curtis Rueden <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Hi,
>
> You mentioned needing a "grayscale LUT." If all you need is grayscale,
> ImageJ already supports 16-bit unsigned image data (which could
> contain 10-bit data), which displays as grayscale. You would only need
> a LUT if you need to alter the color table values corresponding to
> particular color indices.
>
> -Curtis
>
> On 10/16/06, Yew wai Liew <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Thanks for the confirmation, Wayne. Has anyone written a 10-bit LUT for
> > ImageJ? If not, can someone point me in the right direction on how I
> should
> > proceed? I'm not familiar with java.
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> >
> > On 10/16/06, Rasband Wayne <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > I'm new to ImageJ, so I wonder if any of you can help me with a
> > > > problem. I'm
> > > > a masters student currently doing my dissertation on the effect of
> > > > bit-depth
> > > > on image quality.
> > > >
> > > > I'm working on a couple of primary-grade monochrome Barco medical
> > > > displays
> > > > which have 10-bit grayscale resolution capabilities. Right now I've
> > > > imported
> > > > 16-bit unsigned images into ImageJ but if I'm not mistaken, ImageJ
> > > > works on
> > > > an 8-bit LUT. Is there any way I can edit the LUT or has anyone
> > > > written a
> > > > plugin for a higher bit-depth LUT? Specifically, I need a 10-bit
> > > > grayscale
> > > > LUT. Thanks in advance. I would appreciate any kind of input.
> > >
> > > ImageJ does work with 8-bit LUTs. It also display images using 8-bits
> > > per channel. You will need to write a plugin that works with 10-bit
> > > LUTs and outputs to the Barco display using 12-bits.
> > >
> > > -wayne
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Liew Yew Wai
> >
>

--
Thanks,

YW Liew

[Yew wai Liew]

thanks wayne, I'll try to google it and see what comes up. I think to put it
simply, I need a viewer software (open source) that can display images in
10-bit. But because most LCD displays are inherently 8-bits per subpixel, I
guess it's kinda tough.

On 10/17/06, Wayne Rasband <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Have you looked at Barco's Java-based calibration software? Perhaps it
> can provide clues on how to use Java to display 16-bit images on a
> 10-bit display. You could also try a Google search for "Java Barco
> display" (without the quotes).
>
> -wayne
>
> On Oct 17, 2006, at 10:34 AM, Yew wai Liew wrote:
>
> > hi Curtis,
> >
> > Thanks for the input...I think maybe I should be clearer on what my
> > litlle
> > problem is. I know that ImageJ supports grayscale and unsigned 16-bit
> > images. But since ImageJ's built-in LUT is that of an 8-bit what it
> > does is
> > that to display those images, it takes all 16-bit and 32-bit grayscale
> > images and linearly rescales it to the 8-bit LUT so that a pixel value
> > of 0
> > is black and 255 is white.
> >
> > I'm doing a comparison on image quality between 8 and 10-bit grayscale
> > images, by measuring the luminance which corresponds to a paticular
> > pixel
> > value. Say I generate square boxes of uniform pixel value of
> > 32768,32834 and
> > 32900. These images will be 16-bit unsigned. Now on a true 10-bit
> > display I
> > will be able to measure a difference in the luminance for these boxes.
> > But
> > when I view them using ImageJ, the pixel values get rescaled to
> > 128,128 and
> > 128. An 8-bit depth will not be able to handle the subtle differences
> > in
> > pixel values.
> >
> > Therefore, my question is this..has anyone written a plugin for a
> > 10-bit
> > LUT? Which would have values of 0 for black and 1023 for white? I am
> > unfamiliar with Java, can someone show me how I can write the plugin
> > myself?
> >
> >
> > On 10/16/06, Curtis Rueden <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> You mentioned needing a "grayscale LUT." If all you need is grayscale,
> >> ImageJ already supports 16-bit unsigned image data (which could
> >> contain 10-bit data), which displays as grayscale. You would only need
> >> a LUT if you need to alter the color table values corresponding to
> >> particular color indices.
> >>
> >> -Curtis
> >>
> >> On 10/16/06, Yew wai Liew <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> > Thanks for the confirmation, Wayne. Has anyone written a 10-bit LUT
> >> for
> >> > ImageJ? If not, can someone point me in the right direction on how I
> >> should
> >> > proceed? I'm not familiar with java.
> >> >
> >> > Thanks.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On 10/16/06, Rasband Wayne <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > > I'm new to ImageJ, so I wonder if any of you can help me with a
> >> > > > problem. I'm
> >> > > > a masters student currently doing my dissertation on the effect
> >> of
> >> > > > bit-depth
> >> > > > on image quality.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > I'm working on a couple of primary-grade monochrome Barco
> >> medical
> >> > > > displays
> >> > > > which have 10-bit grayscale resolution capabilities. Right now
> >> I've
> >> > > > imported
> >> > > > 16-bit unsigned images into ImageJ but if I'm not mistaken,
> >> ImageJ
> >> > > > works on
> >> > > > an 8-bit LUT. Is there any way I can edit the LUT or has anyone
> >> > > > written a
> >> > > > plugin for a higher bit-depth LUT? Specifically, I need a 10-bit
> >> > > > grayscale
> >> > > > LUT. Thanks in advance. I would appreciate any kind of input.
> >> > >
> >> > > ImageJ does work with 8-bit LUTs. It also display images using
> >> 8-bits
> >> > > per channel. You will need to write a plugin that works with
> >> 10-bit
> >> > > LUTs and outputs to the Barco display using 12-bits.
> >> > >
> >> > > -wayne
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Liew Yew Wai
> >> >
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Thanks,
> >
> > YW Liew
> >
>

--
Thanks,

YW Liew

[Daniel Glen]

Take a look at Eizo's Radiforce line for mammography which also have  
some support for 10-bit LUTs.
http://radiforce.com/en/products/mono-gs510-dm.html

and Dome's EX line too.
http://www.planar.com/products/medical_displays_solutions/dome_ex/ 
index.html

and Image-Smiths' DICOM calibration software
http://www.image-smiths.com/download.htm

On Oct 17, 2006, at 12:09 PM, Yew wai Liew wrote:

> thanks wayne, I'll try to google it and see what comes up. I think  
> to put it
> simply, I need a viewer software (open source) that can display  
> images in
> 10-bit. But because most LCD displays are inherently 8-bits per  
> subpixel, I
> guess it's kinda tough.
>
> On 10/17/06, Wayne Rasband <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Have you looked at Barco's Java-based calibration software?  
>> Perhaps it
>> can provide clues on how to use Java to display 16-bit images on a
>> 10-bit display. You could also try a Google search for "Java Barco
>> display" (without the quotes).
>>
>> -wayne
>>
>> On Oct 17, 2006, at 10:34 AM, Yew wai Liew wrote:
>>
>> > hi Curtis,
>> >
>> > Thanks for the input...I think maybe I should be clearer on what my
>> > litlle
>> > problem is. I know that ImageJ supports grayscale and unsigned  
>> 16-bit
>> > images. But since ImageJ's built-in LUT is that of an 8-bit what it
>> > does is
>> > that to display those images, it takes all 16-bit and 32-bit  
>> grayscale
>> > images and linearly rescales it to the 8-bit LUT so that a pixel  
>> value
>> > of 0
>> > is black and 255 is white.
>> >
>> > I'm doing a comparison on image quality between 8 and 10-bit  
>> grayscale
>> > images, by measuring the luminance which corresponds to a paticular
>> > pixel
>> > value. Say I generate square boxes of uniform pixel value of
>> > 32768,32834 and
>> > 32900. These images will be 16-bit unsigned. Now on a true 10-bit
>> > display I
>> > will be able to measure a difference in the luminance for these  
>> boxes.
>> > But
>> > when I view them using ImageJ, the pixel values get rescaled to
>> > 128,128 and
>> > 128. An 8-bit depth will not be able to handle the subtle  
>> differences
>> > in
>> > pixel values.
>> >
>> > Therefore, my question is this..has anyone written a plugin for a
>> > 10-bit
>> > LUT? Which would have values of 0 for black and 1023 for white?  
>> I am
>> > unfamiliar with Java, can someone show me how I can write the  
>> plugin
>> > myself?
>> >
>> >
>> > On 10/16/06, Curtis Rueden <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Hi,
>> >>
>> >> You mentioned needing a "grayscale LUT." If all you need is  
>> grayscale,
>> >> ImageJ already supports 16-bit unsigned image data (which could
>> >> contain 10-bit data), which displays as grayscale. You would  
>> only need
>> >> a LUT if you need to alter the color table values corresponding to
>> >> particular color indices.
>> >>
>> >> -Curtis
>> >>
>> >> On 10/16/06, Yew wai Liew <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >> > Thanks for the confirmation, Wayne. Has anyone written a 10-
>> bit LUT
>> >> for
>> >> > ImageJ? If not, can someone point me in the right direction  
>> on how I
>> >> should
>> >> > proceed? I'm not familiar with java.
>> >> >
>> >> > Thanks.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > On 10/16/06, Rasband Wayne <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >> > >
>> >> > > > I'm new to ImageJ, so I wonder if any of you can help me  
>> with a
>> >> > > > problem. I'm
>> >> > > > a masters student currently doing my dissertation on the  
>> effect
>> >> of
>> >> > > > bit-depth
>> >> > > > on image quality.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > I'm working on a couple of primary-grade monochrome Barco
>> >> medical
>> >> > > > displays
>> >> > > > which have 10-bit grayscale resolution capabilities.  
>> Right now
>> >> I've
>> >> > > > imported
>> >> > > > 16-bit unsigned images into ImageJ but if I'm not mistaken,
>> >> ImageJ
>> >> > > > works on
>> >> > > > an 8-bit LUT. Is there any way I can edit the LUT or has  
>> anyone
>> >> > > > written a
>> >> > > > plugin for a higher bit-depth LUT? Specifically, I need a  
>> 10-bit
>> >> > > > grayscale
>> >> > > > LUT. Thanks in advance. I would appreciate any kind of  
>> input.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > ImageJ does work with 8-bit LUTs. It also display images using
>> >> 8-bits
>> >> > > per channel. You will need to write a plugin that works with
>> >> 10-bit
>> >> > > LUTs and outputs to the Barco display using 12-bits.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > -wayne
>> >> > >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > --
>> >> > Liew Yew Wai
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Thanks,
>> >
>> > YW Liew
>> >
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Thanks,
>
> YW Liew

[drbubbles]

Hay! YW Liew,
I know it is 5 years later (!) but did you ever manage to get 10 bit greyscale from imageJ? I'd like to do the same. I have a quadro card and a dell u3011 (both with display prot and both support 10bits per colour), both with display port. I haven't found any scientific software that natively supports 10 bit (I have IDL, Mathematical, Matlab, Origin).